Peptides & Aesthetics Part 2

Overview

In Episode 4 of The Fan Method, Dr. Seeds discusses the multifaceted benefits and applications of GLP1s and various peptides in health and aesthetic medicine. Key points include the role of GLP1s in preventing muscle atrophy and promoting muscle efficiency during weight loss, as well as their impact on behavioral changes related to eating habits through neurological adjustments. Dr. Seeds emphasizes the importance of proper dosing and monitoring for the long-term safety of GLP1 therapy, while outlining the cellular benefits of peptides like BPC157 and Thymosin Beta 4 in optimizing surgical outcomes and enhancing skin health. He also advises on sourcing high-quality peptides from certified pharmacies and highlights resources for healthcare providers interested in cellular medicine. The meeting concludes with a commitment to empower patients and practitioners through education and informed health choices.

Notes

GLP1s and Muscle Preservation(00:00 - 09:44)

• GLP1s have unique signaling to genes that prevent muscle atrophy
• GLP1s can enhance muscle efficiency and function while losing weight
• Dr. Seeds has patients who build muscle while using GLP1s
• Weight loss naturally leads to some muscle loss regardless of method
• Proper protein intake is necessary to encourage muscle protein synthesis
• Resistance training activates genes that promote muscle retention
• Hydration is crucial when using peptides
• Properly managed GLP1 therapy combined with exercise shows positive muscle maintenance curves

Long-term GLP1 Use and Behavior Change(09:44 - 19:28)

• Patients can get off GLP1s but may lose some progress without discipline
• GLP1s alter the metabolic state of neurons in the brain's hypothalamus
• This neural change allows patients to make better decisions about eating
• Over time, patients can develop new behaviors that persist after reducing dosage
• GLP1 therapy helps create new neural pathways that support behavior change
• Most of Dr. Seeds' patients continue on a lower 'maintenance' dose for ongoing benefits
• Low-dose maintenance provides immune cell modulation and metabolic assistance
• The peptide has pleiotropic (multiple) beneficial pathways in the body

GLP1 Safety and Aesthetic Applications(19:28 - 29:46)

• Long-term safety requires respecting appropriate dosing
• Patients should have an eye exam before starting GLP1s due to potential ocular health issues
• Lower 'microdosing' is safer for long-term use
• Aesthetic treatments should focus on the cellular level (keratinocytes, melanocytes, fibroblasts)
• Aging skin loses the undulating papilla of the dermis, reducing surface area for oxygen transfer
• Fibroblasts are critical master cells that affect other skin cells through growth factors
• Senescent 'zombie cells' disrupt normal skin function and structure
• Optimizing cellular health enhances both aesthetic results and overall health

Peptides for Aesthetic Improvement(29:46 - 40:33)

• BPC157, a peptide discovered by Croatian scientists, helps maintain extracellular matrix
• BPC157 increases vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and improves nitric oxide production
• Thymosin Beta 4 is an immune peptide that modulates senescence and works with BPC157
• GHK-Cu works at the gene level to encourage less fibrosis and more keratinocyte proliferation
• These peptides can work synergistically to improve aesthetic outcomes
• Collagen supplementation is scientifically validated for skin improvement
• Plastic surgeons could enhance their results by incorporating cellular medicine
• These peptides benefit not just skin appearance but overall health

Peptides for Surgical Optimization(40:33 - 50:37)

• Dr. Seeds recommends BPC157 and Thymosin Beta 4 for six weeks before surgery
• Post-surgical peptide use recommended for 3-4 months after procedures
• These peptides significantly reduce edema (swelling) after surgical procedures
• Patients often experience additional health benefits beyond the surgical site
• When discussing with patients, frame peptides as cellular optimization that helps surgical outcomes
• Position peptide therapy as creating teamwork between patient cells and surgeon
• Scientific data supports collagen supplementation with vitamin C for better collagen alignment
• Thymosin Beta 4 has been studied for ligamentous injuries and fibrosis prevention

Sourcing Quality Peptides(50:37 - 59:00)

• Peptides must come from qualified pharmacies with third-party testing
• Quality peptides should have >98% purity rate with antimicrobial checks
• The Society for Regenerative Peptide Medicine (SSRP) requires third-party testing from providers
• Online peptides labeled 'not for human use' should be avoided
• Impure peptides might have fragments with unknown/harmful effects
• The FDA is increasingly focused on the peptide industry
• Peptides provide precise, targeted cellular signaling compared to exosomes
• Exosomes can be complementary but have less precision (contain growth factors, peptides, RNA)

Resources and Future Directions(59:00 - 01:06:27)

• Dr. Seeds is releasing a GLP1-focused book in Q1
• The Redox Medical Group website provides education on cellular medicine
• SSRP website offers resources for healthcare providers including research repository
• SSRP has forums where physicians can discuss patient cases and share knowledge
• Dr. Seeds emphasizes the importance of making informed, empowered health choices
• The SSRP helps patients find validated practitioners in cellular medicine
• Dr. Seeds is resuming his podcast to educate the general public
• Cellular medicine is about helping cells make better decisions

00:00
Dr. Larry Fan
Welcome back. Here is part two of our interview with Dr. Seeds. You touched upon sort of, you know, losing muscle when you lose weight. And you know, many people are, you know, I guess, becoming more aware of this and talking about it specifically with Oz Epic, for example, do you believe that there is the sarcopenia, the muscle loss of sarcopenia, do you believe that there's something different about it when using a GLP1 or is it simply muscle loss related to just, you know, weight loss in general and it's not really specific to the medicine. And then you mentioned the importance of exercise resistance training. You know, do you believe that's enough or do you think that there's something, you know, more necessary as something with something anabolic, for example, be helpful. 

00:49
Dr. William Seeds
So again, yes, great questions here. So what everybody needs to know right off the bat is any weight loss program, you're going to lose muscle. What's fascinating about the utilization of GLP1s is they actually GLP1s have signaling to specific genes that actually stop atrophy of muscle and enhance actually muscle efficiency and function. And so from that side of it, if you start to see these in particular with muscle, the signaling that's. So we call it pleiotropic, has many different pathways of how it helps the cell and in particular muscle, that it actually has that effect. It changes your perspective on. I have people that we use GLP1s that are building muscle, right? I mean, what. Building muscle? Are you kidding me? I'm like, no, that's absolutely. We've been doing it. We're doing it 10 years ago. 

02:05
Dr. William Seeds
I mean, it's understanding and respecting that with the fact that you have to stimulate. Right? So if I'm losing weight and I'm just sitting around, you're going to atrophy regardless. So I've put you in a state of where you're going to better at in a catabolic state of burning up energy. Well, where is the body going to go if it doesn't have the energy? Where is it going to go to get its energy? It's going to go to muscle and break down muscle. So if you understand that and you help people with, okay, this is an area for a while we're in this course of action, we're going to have to improve your protein intake. And there's actually specific guidelines of how much protein is necessary to encourage this process called muscle protein synthesis. Well, that's a way to do it without even exercise. 

03:04
Dr. William Seeds
But you need to stimulate that and then add the exercise to it. Resistance training that actually activates other genes to upregulate to promote muscle retainment and building. And not just that, but also bone. So to make generic statements like and sound official that these GLP1s are a problem, because in my population, I'm seeing this amount of muscle loss, and I've done the studies and I'd say, well, you're an idiot because you don't know what you're doing. And I have no problem telling anybody that. It's like, come on, you're a smart person. It's like, let's look at this and let's. And we've already, we've got that data actually with GLP1s with exercise and how it shows the curve changing with muscle. So, so, and again, I think that other thing that's very important is people don't realize that inefficient muscle is not good muscle. 

04:13
Dr. William Seeds
The body's, There's a reason the body's removing that muscle so that you can. Then you're making that muscle contraction better. It's gonna better in recovery. You can build from there. So it's kind of giving you a new starting point. But regardless, you're gonna lose some muscle. And, but then we can get into these other aspects like hydration where studies are done. You know, water makes a difference in looking at lean muscle mass, and people don't even look at that. And, and hydration is crucial with the use of these type of peptides because, you know, it may does have an. It does create a problem where people don't concentrate on keeping themselves hydrated. So I could go on and on about that, but I hope that makes some sense. 

05:11
Dr. Larry Fan
Absolutely. And then on the topic of gop, on some of the other most common questions or even, you know, sometimes a little bit controversial, you know, once someone starts the medicines, can they stop? Can they get off of them, or do they need to take them? 

05:25
Dr. William Seeds
You know, so I learned this and that's a, that was the intention, at least from my side, years and years ago when I used it daily. And what I found was that you can get off the peptide, but you're going to lose a little ground if you don't maintain your discipline. And here's something that's just so fascinating. I learned from my patients that the patients that were, you know, you achieved your goal. And then what I typically would do is I'd say, okay, we can back down the dosing, which is now called microdosing, which is some new term, which is just total bullshit. It's not microdosing. It's tailoring the dose to still be effective so a patient can toggle back if they wish. 

06:26
Dr. William Seeds
Or you still feel like they're getting some of the benefits for the immune system, the brain, the bone, and so forth. And I'm not gonna get into that part, but what we've learned is I would start to talk to my patients about where they got to this state of where they achieved these incredible goals. And they would tell me how they started a new hobby or their discipline was better in going to the gym. And I was like, that's amazing. Or before even the literature was out there on, hey, I stopped drinking. I'm not gambling. I don't have sugar. It's like I'm just listening to my patients going, this is incredible. Well, that brought you into the science of what's happening in the brain. What's happening in the hypothalamus. What's happening specifically to. 

07:25
Dr. William Seeds
If I can simplify it, just let's say, let's look at it like a cell is just overactive in an area of the brain. It's overactive, and it's creating an environment for a behavior, for you to eat in a way that you don't realize you're overeating and you can't fight it because it's a behavior. Well, what if I told you that again, talking about efficiencies of the cell and how GLP1 receptors are on many cells in the body and in particular in the brain, the hypothalamus, on particular cells that you. By using these GLP1s, you alter the metabolic state of this neuron or communication that's going to happen in the brain, that you balance it. So all of a sudden, when you didn't think you could make a decision, you now actually, you can make a decision. 

08:32
Dr. William Seeds
You know, it's like it's changing a behavior, right? For a behavior to become a behavior, you have to repeat it. It's kind of hard, but you kind of have to keep repeating it. It's how people get into too much eating. They just eat, eat, and it just becomes a behavior, and then they can't stop. And it may be very subtle, but it's still overeating. But if you can reverse that cell's metabolic state to where it can again decide for itself and say, hey, if you give me the right signaling, I won't eat that. So what I'm saying is people can. Like, if you back down the dose, and people say, oh, my appetite's coming back. I feel this craving. And you're like, okay, well, what did you do about that? Well, I decided not to do that. And I'd be like, there you go. 

09:24
Dr. William Seeds
And I said, what if you repeat this? And so the conversation three months later was, Dr. Seeds, now I don't even think about it, but I'm controlling what I'm doing. I said, yes, because you can make a decision now and you've changed a behavior. Well, let's fast forward. So that's something I saw clinically. I couldn't explain it. I knew it was something about an MTOR state of a particular cell and ampk MTOR and so forth. Not until I was in Singapore when I met, out of the Max Planck lab, one of the leading endocrinologists who was doing the research on the brain where they showed the molecular pathways of this actually happening. And, and I was like, holy shit, it's here. And I'm talking to this brilliant scientist, and then I'm giving them my, hey, here's my clinical knowledge. 

10:25
Dr. William Seeds
And we're just like two kids in a store of like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I finally had the validation of, holy shit, this is empowering. So, so I use this to empower my patients to say, hey, have you ever thought about learning another language? Have you ever thought about playing an instrument? Because why? Because the brain cells have to adapt, right? The more adaption you're doing, like in the brain, it opens up more neuronal, more dendritic, it opens more communication. It's a way of building the brain. Oh, my God. It's been. I've been. I can't say enough about how this particular peptide is changing the world, but you gotta respect it. You gotta know how to use it, and you've gotta know how to. That's hard work, though, for those people that have to rebuild that behavior. That's not easy. 

11:30
Dr. William Seeds
They have to work at it. 

11:32
Dr. Larry Fan
So for patients that see you that are. Maybe they're starting off obese and they're using GLP1 to lose weight when they get to their goal. What percent of patients are you able to sort of have them discontinue the, the glp? 

11:48
Dr. William Seeds
So I have probably very few people who ever stop because we go down to a lower dosing of where they still get the benefits of the. How do I say, of. Of being there to assist a little bit with metabolism, with Immune cell modulation, it's, it still has benefits. And now that's all this is. This is not validated yet through rigorous science. Okay, that's coming, but the pathways are there. It's happening. I see it, I've respected it from day one. And what's interesting is I've taken patients. So at the beginning, let's go back to when it was a daily thing and I take people off of it. They definitely were, they'd noticed a little, there was something missing. 

12:58
Dr. William Seeds
And I'd say, well, let's just start you back and we'll just start on this low dose and instead of twice a day doing it, we'll just do it in the morning or we might use it at night, depending on what was right for the patient. And I was able to kind of recapture that. The, how do you say, the feeling the patient had about their health. And it's very subtle. But then there are people, I have people that go off of them, not very many though. And I let them make the decisions and I say, look, I'm here. And the people though that have gone off end up coming back and want to, hey, can I start this again? 

13:43
Dr. William Seeds
But my belief just from the understanding of the cellular pleiotrophic many pathways it has, I've just seen so many incredible benefits that it's like, why wouldn't you consider this natural peptide you're making? Because what people. The other part of this is something that you're making in your gut. And, and if we get into the issues about the microbiome issues and dysbiosis, they can take years to change. It doesn't happen overnight. So there's still an effect on some of the capability of that cell to produce enough of the GLP one you'd like to see. So I think we're accomplishing things. I think we'll, I'll be humbled again in some fashion of where we need to learn more. But I feel it's a benefit. 

14:45
Dr. Larry Fan
Yeah. 

14:45
Dr. William Seeds
And that's just a personal opinion, but based on a lot of clinical experience and also like I said, understanding these mechanisms and pathways of what is this peptide specifically doing and why is it so important and why are those so many other things that we do in our body that our body does to produce or make GLP1s right. That stimulate it. 

15:16
Dr. Larry Fan
So yeah, so we've talked about the many benefits of GLP1 and that extends way beyond weight loss and you know, really has potential for long term benefit. So many patients can benefit from taking it potentially long term. You know, on the flip side, do you have much concern about the safety of taking GLP1 sort of, you know, for the long term? 

15:38
Dr. William Seeds
Yes, I do. And absolutely. I think that's where it comes into understanding that when you first start out with these GLP1s, you're giving people a super physiologic dose to make things happen. So you can't do that forever. You have to respect it. And if you're not seeing results, you have to change. So there's lots of ways to adapt to help the cell make better decisions. But once it, once you've accomplished your goals, you gotta back down. And then I think the microdosing is a very safe place. But you do have to. So with any of these treatments or usage of peptides in particular, like the GLP1s, the question would be, are there any particular side effects that we really need to pay attention to? And this is where I am very focused on. Yes, there are. 

16:41
Dr. William Seeds
So with GLP1s, what isn't talked about is the potential, with possibilities of ocular health changing. And that's been something that's been debated over the years and actually now finally has come to a place of where there's, I think there's good data to show that not just in diabetics, but just people also with weight loss, that there's a potential for eye issues. And in particular, it's an area that, it's one of the places I focus in telling healthcare providers when you're gonna start this, people have to have an eye exam first. Okay. You gotta have a starting point and you just have to have the. I think there are, from what I teach physicians and how to use these, and there are definitely ways to, I think, change that whole aspect of what actually happens when there are potentially changes in the eye. 

17:50
Dr. William Seeds
And that gets into a much bigger discussion. But again, it's respecting and understanding these pathways. And so absolutely, you've got to be thinking about long term. And that is an area that I think everybody has to be more focused on. But it's why it's the beautiful part of GLP1. It introduces people into this world of where you can do other things to really make them healthy and to subvert those problems that could be potential problems that people aren't telling their patients, because you gotta give your patients that information to make a good decision. So, and as much as I'm enthusiastic about this, as much as I think I know a lot about it, the data is, you know, we don't have that yet. Yeah. And we have to respect that. So you got to work with your patients. 

18:55
Dr. William Seeds
But I do think that the lower dosing is the key, and actually I could even go further. But, yeah, I think you bring up some really good points with that. 

19:10
Dr. Larry Fan
That's great. I'd like to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about aesthetics. So, you know, a lot of people, including my, you know, my patients, probably your patients as well, you know, not only want to feel their best, but they actually would like to look their best. And, you know, traditional aesthetic treatments, things like. Like Botox and fillers and lasers, you know, typically only really address sort of the surface. You know, what we see, you know, there potentially is an opportunity to help people look their best by treating sort of the cells or treating. At a fundamental level. Can you. You talk about is there a place for peptides and other cellular medicine sort of treatments to be able to help with people's appearance? 

19:57
Dr. William Seeds
Another great question and another place to kind of bring you back to the cell and efficiency of the cell. So in the aesthetic world, again, this is where, you know, anatomy is destiny. Molecular pathways are destiny. Cells are destiny. So if we take aesthetics and we. Let's just take the face and we talk about wrinkles and atrophy and so forth, what do we really. Where should we be? Well, we should be focused on the keratinocyte, on the melanocyte and the fibroblast, because they're actually the. The cells that kind of guide what happens at the epidermal dermal junction. And it's. And what happens is, you know, people, oh, the wrinkles. Because I'm losing collagen or elastin or. No, what's happening is that epithelial dermal junction is shrinking and changing. You're losing the undulating papilla of the dermis, and you're losing surface area. 

21:08
Dr. William Seeds
So when blood comes in to give oxygen and remove waste, you're losing surface area because you're losing that. And why. So the question is, why are you losing that? Well, this is the inside. This is the deal. You have. You have a cell, so you have the keratinocyte. You have the fibroblasts. It's. That is kind of the master cell that kind of goes wrong first. And that. That fibroblast is so important in producing keratinocyte growth factors, IGF1, things that induce the keratinocytes to proliferate, differentiate, and be that thick layer you want them to be. And it also has some effect on the melanocytes to produce enough pigment to protect those cells from uvb, uva, light. So they're all talking. And if you know that, and you know that over time, the first cell that changes is the fibroblast. 

22:16
Dr. William Seeds
It can potentially become a senescent cell, which means it's a bad cell that starts communicating in a different way and sending, you know, causing oxidative stress, causing DNA damage that then may make the keratinocyte become senescent and then the melanocyte become. It's. If you understand that, I'm going to tell you right now that just the basic discussion we had on just working on understanding of how you help recovery and repair, well, you're actually doing the same things to make those cells work better, to help the health of the skin, you know, the epidermis, the dermis and the immune cells, the Langerhan cells also, where people don't understand how important the immune cells are there because. Because when things start going bad and you have these senescent cells, these bad zombie cells, they're signaling to bring inflammatory cells. 

23:25
Dr. William Seeds
So if you know that, why don't you work on trying to make that environment better? And that's where I think you, as a profession of plastic surgeons, I mean, you guys are at the top. You guys are intelligent, bright, gifted surgeons, and your knowledge base is tremendous. And I feel like. And this is why I love talking to you, because you're interested. And it's like, why wouldn't you want to own this, too? Why wouldn't you want to. While I'm doing this work, why am I not doing this work and own the space and gain. I don't want to say gain. I want to say your field's getting diluted. In some ways, you guys are the pioneers. 

24:16
Dr. William Seeds
You guys are the people that have worked very hard to build this field and to make it an incredible opportunity for people to change their lives and to look different. I'm not telling people I'm going to make them look different. I can make them age gracefully, but I can do things to provide the environment to make the things you do even better and even more powerful. And I'm sure you know the. And forgive me for I'm not for the things that go wrong out there that you guys end up seeing, which you see, you're seeing more and more of. It's because people are doing things to the skin to cause that Senescence to cause those cells to create more fibrosis. So when you go in and do that lift, you're like, holy shit, where did all this fibrous tissue come from? 

25:11
Dr. William Seeds
Why is my anatomy not like it should be? It's because some things have been happening. Well, how powerful would that be if you had the knowledge base or not the knowledge base, but the tools to make all of that better for your patient and your outcomes? Because you guys are under the most scrutiny of any surgeon that's there, any doctor. You guys are, you're at the top of, if something's not right, you're. It's done right. You have to be perfectionist. And I think, you know, you're. And you're in. You guys are always in search for the what's the next best tool? What's the next best innovation? And you find them. But what if you took the power of the cell and combined what you did? You'd be unstoppable. 

26:10
Dr. Larry Fan
Absolutely. And that's why we're working on a program for beauty inside and out. I think it's going to be really powerful. I like to say aesthetics is much like the, quote, anti aging world, where it's a little bit of a wild west. 

26:23
Dr. William Seeds
Correct. 

26:23
Dr. Larry Fan
But plastic surgeons, you know, we are very much focused on research and science as well as innovation. And I, you know, share the same mindset that you have with always being curious and hungry and you know, and always sort of focused on the patients, but also the science. I did want to sort of ask you related to that, you know, when it comes to aesthetics and particularly with, you know, the skin, what, you know, I guess, you know, what are the best, you know, peptides or cellular sort of, you know, treatments or supplements that really can help in sort of in a, in a practical way. 

27:08
Dr. William Seeds
Sure. I think so overall, in general, you're just again, you're trying to provide the environment, you're trying to provide a better environment for the cells to function, like these keratinocytes and fibroblasts and melanocytes. You're trying to give them the opportunity to not go down the wrong path. And it's basically, we could go back to oxidative stress and how the efficiencies of those cells are dependent on mitochondria and how that actually plays a role in efficiency and balance. And it comes right back to redox. This is what I've been talking about the whole time here is redox and balance. So there are in particular, and what I think is fascinating here that I might add is when. 

28:15
Dr. William Seeds
And it's so fabulous to hear your interest level and what you're doing because I'm going to tell you, by you just utilizing this approach of working on improving the aesthetics in a cellular way, you're not just improving their aesthetics, you're improving their life. You're doing things to help their cardiac health, their muscle health, their brain health. I mean, because it's all the same. And so you're going to have a powerful impact on your patients. You're going to have an incredible space here that I think is just untouched. And so my hat's off to you. And I think that the basics here are there are some simple approaches of working with a few peptides. 

29:18
Dr. William Seeds
We could pick two or three or four that can make all the difference in preoperative planning, post operative planning, or just simple improvement aesthetically that will not only impact the face, but impact the whole body. So if you want me to go on, I can talk about different potential peptides for that or. 

29:46
Dr. Larry Fan
Yeah, I would love to sort of have the summary of what are sort of the most effective peptides specifically to be able to help obviously with all of cellular function, but knowing if someone's, if someone was coming maybe with a primary interest of hey, I would love to have that healthy glowing skin. Sure, you know, sure. 

30:09
Dr. William Seeds
Well, okay, so again, this gets done. So this is where it can get incredibly as complex as you want to make it for your patients is the more you learn and the more you understand. But jumping in to just giving a, how do I say, an approach to represent, like, okay, so we're talking about aesthetics. We're concerned with these particular cells. In particular, the fibroblast plays a big role in certain growth factors that are necessary to keep the environment healthy and to stop degradation of tissue. You know, these metalloproteinases that are very significant and also understanding that there's different collagen in like in the dermis, there's type 7, there's type 4, there's laminin 3, 4, 4. They're different. It's different in each level. 

31:14
Dr. William Seeds
So I think the primary goal is to approach this like, okay, how can I reduce oxidative stress but how can I give these cells the potential to better at what they do? So there's a well known peptide out that is being utilized in the world today that was discovered by the Croatians BPC157 that mimics, it mimics a peptide that's produced in the stomach and its focuses It's a peptide that's focused on. It's not, doesn't have a direct effect, it has indirect effects. And in particular, if we're going to talk about aesthetics, what's really interesting with BPC157, it has to do with. We can go as deep as we wish here, but not to complicate it works on structure in the cell. 

32:15
Dr. William Seeds
It works on structure in what we call the extracellular matrix, in maintaining and keeping the ability of the structure to maintain itself, which is very important. And it has a way of increasing certain growth factors like vascular endothelial growth factor, which as you know, is very important in continued growth of cells and blood supply. And that's what the fibroblast actually does. It, it produces vegf. So and it also works on nitric oxide production, it works on collagen reorganization. And I mean, it goes on and on. So that's a peptide that can be very significant in just making the environment. Like if you just use 1 peptide, BPC157 can make changes. And then in combination with potentially a collagen supplement, which can be very valuable. 

33:31
Dr. William Seeds
And collagen, there's collagen peptides and then there's hydroxylated, there's collagen hydrosylates, and there's actually these things called naive collagens that are the full collagen itself. And so that gets into a little bit. But collagen is. Don't let anybody say that using collagen as a supplement isn't helpful, because it is and it's been proven and the science is there. People just have to wake up and it makes a difference when you use something like that to help. Because if went through the science of what happens as you age, you lose some of the abilities of the efficiencies of the mitochondria that are important in signaling collagen formation. And actually initially, when you're not doing that well, the cell will respond by producing this hypoxic inducing factor, one that is something that creates VEGF to be produced to make up. 

34:40
Dr. William Seeds
But over time that can be a bad thing. So, so what I'm saying is you've got something like BPC157 that can kind of change the environment for you. And, and you can use it in many ways that can be effective preoperatively, postoperatively, or just generally aesthetic wise. And, and you can actually, it can be direct use, or it can be just systemic and have effects. So there's Some intricacies there and then there are things like thymosin beta 4 and that's an immune peptide, it's an immune modulator, but it's also a sinomodulator, meaning if we understand that this environment over time leads to senescence, which is not a good thing. Do we have ways of affecting and controlling senescence? Well yeah, we've got exercise, we've got diet, and those are effective. 

35:42
Dr. William Seeds
But you have a peptide that actually can modulate senescence and control some of that pro inflammatory signaling. And it works in conjunction with BPC for collagen alignment, but also for like actin filaments in their growth and structure. Because there are these actin filaments are actually how signaling is passed through cells and how it builds structure. So you've got some two peptides that work really well together that actually going a step Further, Thymus and Beta 4 can help in stopping hypertrophic scarring. It works against fibrosis. I mean all the things you want to hear as a surgeon, like oh my God, my outcomes could be even better here. So you've got something like that works on particular molecular pathways that we could get into, but has a purpose. And then you've got another path peptide ghkcu, which actually works at the gene level. 

36:52
Dr. William Seeds
It upregulates and downregulates specific genes to encourage less fibrosis, more proliferation of keratinocytes after healing or under stress, or to help fibroblast to keep them in a anti inflammatory, not a pro inflammatory state. So there's three peptides which could change the world of what you do. Yeah, and that's just three. 

37:22
Dr. Larry Fan
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a great sort of segue into talking specifically about surgery. And you know, a lot of people think great surgery really comes from the operating room. And while it's true, like the operating room is critical, but it just doesn't come from only that. So preparation and recovery are two important sort of essential elements. You know, if you were going to take the average person who was maybe having elective surgery generally in pretty good health, you know, as far as preparation, as far as recovery, you know, is there sort of a quick and dirty protocol that really would, you'd say hey, this protocol will get most people sort of optimized to be able to go through surgery and sort of in tip top shape where their cells are working well. 

38:10
Dr. Larry Fan
And by the same token, is there something for recovery and are those things typically the same or are they something different? 

38:18
Dr. William Seeds
So first of all I gotta Give you. My hat's off to you that you recognize. I mean, it's for a. How do I say this? Right? For a surgeon and for someone at your level to say what you just said and not. Not be as. You know, you could rest on your laurels with your outcomes and what you do, because it's well known what you're able to do. So the fact that you even can look past that and say, what can I do better? I mean, that's just awesome. And I'm. Now I'm excited. I'm here because to have somebody at your level to want to even go to that place and not. Not be that. You're. You're talking with compassion, you're talking with a totally different mindset that I just respect the hell out of. So I. I really appreciate what you said. And. 

39:19
Dr. William Seeds
And I want people to realize that, because that's a. You guys are in a tough place, and you. You're. You're magicians and you're artists, and. But you realize that there are other things that need to happen, right? Because we all run into problems. Right? And you're trying to mitigate problems. You're trying to get that pool down to less and less problems. Right? 

39:45
Dr. Larry Fan
Fewer complications, faster recovery, better results. 

39:49
Dr. William Seeds
Right? Right. That's just awesome to hear. So. So then going to this step, so typically fast and furious, and I think in any. We could apply this anywhere in surgery, but in particular with what we're discussing here, I think preoperatively, just utilizing two peptides like BPC157 and Thymosin Beta 4. And if you can do it six weeks before the surgery, I think that's a great setup time. And then three to four months afterwards, I think that those are your windows of very effective wound healing and so forth that goes on afterwards. And what you'll realize and what you'll appreciate is the. What's our. You know, what's the Achilles heel of anything we do? It's edema. It's swelling. It's. 

40:43
Dr. William Seeds
Especially with what you guys do at the level you do, it will be a game changer for you to be able to see that and share that with your patients and what they see to facilitate what you're good at. So you're setting the. You're setting up the environment to be a little bit better. Now, does that mean it has to happen that way? I can tell you that I've worked with helping other physicians or in my own surgical venue of orthopedics, where I'VE only had the opportunity to use them postoperatively. Still very effective. But I think ideally if you can get them in the routine and get them familiar, because if you try to hit em after surgery, it's like, hey, wait a second, I just went through surgery and now you're telling me to do this, like, hold on. 

41:36
Dr. William Seeds
But what you're gonna find is fascinating and intriguing and pull you in even further is what patients tell you, what happens to them in that six week timeframe of things. They notice that change that, maybe some aesthetic stuff, but other things that happen. And you'll be like, I knew that this is why we're, you know, you won't, I'm being facetious. You're going to see some interesting things and that are helpful, that engage the patient. So I, I would say that is, those are the basics that can keep you in a great place. And again, hats off to you. Looking for better outcomes. I mean, that's just awesome. 

42:27
Dr. Larry Fan
When you're communicating with a patient who's going through surgery and you want to sort of educate them about this opportunity to sort of really help take their results, their outcomes to just another level. What do you, what do you tell them as far as what they'll, they need to do, what they're going to go through, but then also what really is the benefit? Like why should they be willing to, you know, take some medicine that they never as a peptide or something they've never heard of and actually have to inject themselves if you know, which is involved for many of the peptides, what do you tell them to sort of help them really understand, but also to help them really see the benefit? 

43:08
Dr. William Seeds
Well, I think it's a, again, it's a conversation that I asked them first, I said, would you like an opportunity to improve the health of your cell before and after this process? Would you like an advantage? Would you like to be in a position to help your surgeon do a better job for you? And that's how you start the conversation. Some people are going to say, I'm just doing the surgery. And you know, it's not going to be everybody's, but it's a conversation. You can start to say, hey, what if you have this opportunity? Would you like to, would you like to explore that? And then it's all about the health, right? 

43:54
Dr. William Seeds
It's, it's, and what you're actually going to find is they've just started their journey with these peptides and it's going to go Further after that, three months or four, they're going to say wow, that wasn't, I noticed other things too that are happening. So it's going to change the whole aspect of how you practice because you're going to be really focused on this cellular health. And I don't think you can say it any simpler than hey, how would you like to give yourselves the capability of doing more of what they did when you were in your 20s and 30s to help me do a better job? Because I like teamwork. I want you to do great. I'm going to give you this something to think about and would you like to team up and do this? 

44:46
Dr. William Seeds
That's how you're going to have to, has to be a conversation that's powerful. 

44:49
Dr. Larry Fan
And do you have any, you know, specific data that, that you can cite or tell patients about to make concrete sort of the true benefits of the supplement of the supplementation? 

45:05
Dr. William Seeds
So so absolutely. So just let's start with just like collagen. So can absolutely data on showing that utilizing collagen itself with a small dose of vitamin C can absolutely change how collagen aligns when it's healing. So data's there. Thymus and Beta 4 has been studied in ligamentous injuries in fibrosis. Data's there. The interesting thing with the, and the data's there for the immune system I can fill up as much as people want to read and inform them. The interesting thing about BPC157 that is and it's the most utilized peptide in the world. Do you realize that there is only one. 

46:03
Dr. William Seeds
There are two clinical trials that went on with BBC 157 didn't complete and all the rest of the data is animal data and but the results speak for themselves with this peptide that has shown no side effects of or complications or immune reactions or if it's a potent peptide. Actually I love to bring this story up. When the Croatian team that discovered BBC 157 and actually patented it which has been hijacked all over the world. I used to have conversations with the team and Cedric, the leading scientists who I used to talk to him about, you know, the, what he was doing with PPC157 which is just fascinating right. And, and all the areas of indirect effects and I talk about, you know, the what were doing with immune peptides and metabolic peptide, blah and he would say William, there's One peptide, it's BPC157. 

47:32
Dr. William Seeds
You don't need to use anything else. He's probably not wrong. I mean, it's got that there's a reason it's there. There's a reason it's being utilized and it's making real changes. The sad part is the. And which we're trying to define in my society, we're actually working on creating those databases to provide the clinical information for all of these peptides that can validate at a different level than when you go through a clinical trial. What's more compelling? It's clinical evidence. Right? It's evidence based. 

48:20
Dr. Larry Fan
Yeah. 

48:20
Dr. William Seeds
And the reason that you're seeing this, this surge of interest is because it's making a difference. It's really working. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the, that's the most I can do informing people. 

48:37
Dr. Larry Fan
Absolutely. It's. It, to me, it's wild. In medicine, there are a number of things that I do that, you know, were outside the traditional canon of, of of training and traditional allopathic medicine. And it actually, it floors me that the way I've learned about some of these things were either from just doing my own research out of interest or from hearing from patients, you know, and like you said, you learn so much from your patients. And, you know, to me, they're still. Yeah, it's almost a little bit sad that has to happen. But I'm so excited for, you know, the work that you and your group and all of your collaborators are doing. And, you know, I'm excited to be sort of, you know, sort of doing some of these things myself as well. 

49:22
Dr. Larry Fan
You know, I want to sort of talk about, for people who are watching, like, hey, if somebody is interested in really exploring this further, you know, what number one are the practical steps. Like, what is the first thing that someone who, you know, maybe is watching and saying, hey, this all sounds really interesting to me. You know, I'd like to learn more. How do they really go about sort of exploring the process and how do they go about successfully go through the process of getting treatment? Can you talk about that a little bit? 

49:53
Dr. William Seeds
Sure. That opens a can of worms, right? It's the Wild west out there. Everybody's an expert. Everybody's an expert. And let me be the first to tell you, I'm not an expert. I'm learning and I'm an educator and I'm respecting where this field needs to go. And with that comes a great responsibility to the people looking for this information. And so we've set up a Process of different tracks for physicians and healthcare providers to gain the knowledge to be certified that I've. That I've developed over the years to at least show the provider that the. Or the patient, when they're asking, are you trained or do you. Do you have some, you know, what's your knowledge base? So we from the SSRP have a certification that in different. 

50:59
Dr. William Seeds
We have different tracks for, you know, potentially overall management or surgical management, or we can help people define what they want to be, basically, but to make sure that they represent the science. And so we actually have. What's interesting, we set this up in helping physicians and found that were having patients call in and say, hey, where are your doctors? And we're like, oh, my gosh, we're not even. We need to start keeping track of all these people and say, okay, these people are in California, these people are in Alaska. These people are in Miami. These people are in London. These people are india. So we have now we've established ourselves to where we can help people find those answers. And, And I think that has to. And it's still the Wild West. And I get very. 

52:05
Dr. William Seeds
It kind of triggers me there too, where you get people out there that may be trying to teach it, but they're not even practicing it. And that drives me insane. I could go on and on. I think. I think it's just physicians looking for the healthcare providers looking for the right knowledge, end up finding us. And we're doing a better job of now, you know, started off grassroots and now it's exploded. And so we're. I think we're doing an appropriate job of letting people know we're around to help them. And, and that has, you know, that's taken a long time. But did that answer your question? Was that. 

52:51
Dr. Larry Fan
Absolutely. And I want to, you know, commend you for sort of all of the work that you've done in contributing to the field and doing it in such a, you know, with such a spirit of service and science. And it really is something to commend you for. Now, I wanted to ask you what are some of the main, I guess, mistakes that you see people making when they're going about getting treatment? For example, you know, I hear from patients all the time who want to just go online and order some peptides from some pharmacy on the Internet and then even inject themselves. And, you know, yeah, that's a. 

53:32
Dr. William Seeds
That's another trigger. The best way I can answer that is people have to be very. They have to understand these are prescription peptides that we're prescribing. The physician can write the prescription, the patient can get the prescription, but it has to come from a qualified pharmacy. It has to be able to show third party testing. It has to show you it's not just a, it's got to represent the what is in that vial or that pill or that nasal spray or that cream. It has to truly represent what that is supposed to be. And what people don't understand is these peptides are fragile. They are. It's very important for the structure to be appropriate and to be pure. And I mean like having a higher than a 98% purity rate with that's been checked for antimicrobials. 

54:52
Dr. William Seeds
I mean that's gone through all of the potency, the microbial evaluation and the validation that it's been. What's really interesting that people don't understand is the people that do this here in the US and abroad, there are some really good pharmacies abroad. And here in the US all of them take the extra step of doing third party testing where they get this peptide that they've put together and compounded and it has a certificate of analysis that says, okay, this is what it has in it. But they're going to validate that and send it off to a third party to get that. And that's how like in my society, if you don't do third party testing, we don't even look at you're not going to be part of our group because we're not going to refer physicians to you. That is validation. 

55:51
Dr. William Seeds
So these things that are happening online are just insane. I mean, you're injecting something into your body that you have no idea. You're going on. What somebody says online that. Yeah. And guess what it says on. What does it say on the vial? Not for human use. Are you kidding me? You're going to inject something that says not for human use in your body because somebody's telling you, oh well, you have to put that on the vial or it's a research peptide, so it's still good. It's like you're out of your mind. It's a peptides. It's something you have to respect. Because here's the interesting thing. If you have a peptide that is a certain length, what happens when these peptides get degraded into more active metabolites? They split at certain points. 

56:48
Dr. William Seeds
Well, if you've got an unpure peptide, you may have like 60% of a real peptide. The other 40% is this fragment of. You have no idea what the hell it's doing. And people say, well, I use this online peptide. I felt better. Well, yeah, that 60% might have helped you, but this other part is probably leading to your hepatic cancer or your, you know, you. It's always. I can tell you, whenever somebody's complained of a problem, it always. I would say 99% of the time it comes down to, where's your sourcing? And you found out that this person went outside of your care and went and bought something online. Like, I have a policy. It's just amazing because they're jeopardizing your license when they're going outside of your care and then using something that can be. 

57:48
Dr. William Seeds
That you have no idea they've done, and then they expect it to be okay. It's a really interesting concept that I'm still learning about how to work with this, because that marketplace out there is insane and it's uncontrolled. And the FDA right now is very focused on what we're doing in this field and validating the use of these peptides. Oh, my God. Who's in charge of looking at all these people that are getting harmed? Because that's what I see. I see those people, and I don't have the answers for it other than informing the public. Really. You're going to put something that's not for human use in your body? 

58:39
Dr. Larry Fan
It really is the Wild West. Right. And especially with sort of the craze of the GLP1. You see that. Yeah, everywhere. Another common question or one that is often on people's minds, peptides versus exosomes. Do you think they're just complementary? Do you feel that, you know, peptides are, you know, much more sort of effective and, you know, based, you know, for lots of different reasons, you know, et cetera. 

59:14
Dr. William Seeds
So I would look at it like this. Peptides are very specific, very. It's like a surgical strike. You're going in for a specific pathway, a particular. A particular way of helping the cell make a better decision. Exosome is something that is. It's released by the cell that has. Exosomes can be different. It depends on how they're made. What is actually in that exosome? Meaning it's a vesicle that has growth factors, has peptides, has rna. It has different effects. It's almost like shooting somebody with a bazooka and saying, well, this will better, this will get better. And it's not precision. I think you can't Deny the topical use of exosomes and what they do because of the growth factors and things that some, you know, a bazooka approach for skin issues and burns and so forth can be very good. 

01:00:30
Dr. William Seeds
But I'm going to tell you can be even more precise. Or here's the question you were leaning towards. Could, can you use them in combination? Absolutely. And it's just having the knowledge base of what, where those exosomes come from, what are they specifically releasing, which is changing because you can design those. Right. And, and I think we, I think there's even. We need more data on. Again, that's another wild west place of where people are making claims that I beg to differ with. I think it's an incredible product. I think, you know, that it's got its place. But there are a lot of claims, you know, that are made that just. That. That aren't backed up. Yeah, and same. Same with Peptides too. People say things that I think are unrealistic too. So I'm. 

01:01:27
Dr. Larry Fan
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Now I know. Let's, you know, I know you're also an author and you know, I know you've published at least two, you know, excellent books for, you know, anybody who's really interested in deep diving. One was on sort of, you know, peptide protocols and I think primarily for healthcare practitioners, another one on redox. And I understand that you have a, you've been working on a new book. 

01:01:53
Dr. William Seeds
Yeah, the end of this first quarter. I have a GLP1 book coming out that I've spent quite a while on. That I think is exciting because I think it's going to open a different venue to what's out there right now in the knowledge base. It's going to, it's going to empower people, it's going to empower physicians. It's written for physicians and patients so that you can get the most out of it you want or you can get the general message, which is something I'm still continuing to try to get better at in messaging. But I'm very excited about that because I think it's going to lead into just the things we discussed today. I think it's going to give people a lot more information to make better decisions on. If this is something they want to utilize, that's great. 

01:02:45
Dr. Larry Fan
I look forward to reading it. And for those people who want to just learn more, where can they, I guess, learn more from you or connect with you to be able to get more help and maybe to access some of the resources that you have. 

01:03:03
Dr. William Seeds
So I think this is just great timing because we've. We've revamped our website. The Redox Medical Group, which you can go to, that will be. It's kind of. It's matching this. This demand for information and expertise. I shouldn't say expertise. This education of where are we in this space of cellular medicine? So it's a great place to go. And it's also introducing. I had. I've been absent from my podcasting for a while because of all these other things I've been involved with. And I had so many. I had wonderful feedback from what we originally did. And so we're now back in a place where we can concentrate on this again and getting this messaging to the general population. 

01:03:56
Dr. William Seeds
And I have to tell you, it is the most humbling experience to learn how to talk, because in my communication skills, I sometimes think people understand what I'm saying, and they have no. They're like, what the hell is he talking about? And so I think I'm getting better. And so I'm ready to kind of bring the knowledge base for the public in a much better place where they can make decisions and see what noise is out there and then what real information is and make better decisions. And then we have the SSRP website for healthcare providers to go for more information where I have a. I want to say we have one of the best repositories of data information education in any medical field. And I think I can back that up when people go and see what we have available and. 

01:05:02
Dr. William Seeds
And we have a forum where physicians can communicate with their issues and problems with patients. And, you know, that's where we learn, right? 

01:05:12
Dr. Larry Fan
Oh, absolutely. 

01:05:12
Dr. William Seeds
We learn from each other. And that's an amazing thing that I just didn't realize the power of that. And so that's part of that also. So I think those are a couple of the ways that people can find us. And again, they can utilize the SSRP for trying to find validated people that are in this field and looking to help you. 

01:05:40
Dr. Larry Fan
That's great. It sounds like a number of wonderful resources. And you might know. Dr. Sith, I want to say thank you so much for being here. I've really enjoyed our discussion. I hope our listeners have learned a lot about aesthetics, aging, and cellular medicine. To our listeners, thank you for tuning into the fan method. Remember, the key to looking, feeling, and living your best isn't in quick fixes. It's in understanding your body and making informed, empowered choices. If you found today's episode valuable. Please share it with a friend who might benefit. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss more conversations like this. Until next time, I'm Dr. Larry Thann, reminding you that the secret to unlocking your best self is already inside you. It's just waiting to be activated. As always, stay beautiful and stay fantastic.